I had a woman here on G+ who tried to tell me women wouldn't lie about rape.

I had a woman here on G+ who tried to tell me women wouldn't lie about rape. We argued back and forth and she finally just started calling me names like "misogynist" and blocked me.

The truth is, I've seen it. Not me, thank all the gods, but an acquaintance of mine a long time ago. After being questioned by the police she admitted she lied because they slept together and he never called. She was looking for a way to get back at him.

Lies ruin lives. They can ruin marriages, careers and send people to jail for crimes they didn't commit. 
http://theblackmancan.org/positive-black-male-news-brian-banks-spent-five-years-in-prison-after-being-falsely-accused-of-rape-but-now-he-finally-has-a-career-in-nfl/

Comments

Amy Rothstein said…
For every woman that lies about rape, there are 42 men that lie about rape. 

(42 because that's the right number for lots of things)
Worst lie a woman could ever make. I can't understand why that woman said women wouldn't lie about it. It happens.... FACT
Nicolas DeWolfe said…
That's why I can't agree with feminists that suggest that women never lie, or that women lie far less than men. Or that it's somehow justified for . They don't want to face that reality because it contradicts their world view of women being oppressed rather than the reality that women simply have different forms of power compared to men.
Irreverent Monk said…
The fake rape reports are in the range with fake murder reports, and other false reporting issues.

To blow it up out of proportion is silly.  And women who lied about rape should go to jail, just like another other fraud cases.
Tobias Harms said…
True, women lie about these things but it's more likely for a man to get raped than being falsely accused.

That's because the general cost for a woman to accuse a man, no matter if it's true or not, is so high that very few do it for a lark.
Tobias Harms I don't think they do it for a "lark" I think they do it because they wanna ruin some man's life
Tobias Harms said…
Oh and btw Jason ON​, how can you be certain that the woman you wrote about didn't lie the second time? Ie about not being raped.
Christopher B said…
Women lie about a lot. Look at all women who lie and say they were raped by athletes or celebrities. Money or revenge is always the reason!
Dark Goddess said…
Rape often comes down to a he said, she said. Because of the utter humiliation and scorn that comes along of publicly accusing a man of rape, women lie about 2-8% of the time. The reason why people suggest siding with the woman in a he said, she said situation is because there is at least a 92% probability she's telling the truth. If we ignore that and focus on the chance that a man MIGHT go to jail for something he didn't do, then that's basically a license to rape.
Kayci Morgan so better 1 innocent man goes to prison that 9 guilty walk free?

I think the innocent man would disagree.
Adam Black said…
Innocent until proven guilty, is not a "license to Commit " X -Crime.
Dark Goddess said…
Shaun Nicholson Yeah, I sure they would disagree with the nine women that really were raped. But if we want to shrug off rape to make sure men stay safe what does that say about the value we place on women?

I think women that lie are deplorable and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. But to let rapists walk as long as they don't leave bruises or video evidence is basically saying your word is not worth that of a man. And we convict innocent people for all sorts of crime. If we followed a similar policy to make sure no innocent people went to prison we'd let most people go free.

The way we do it now where a jury listens to all evidence available and then decides who they believe isn't 100%, but our justice system isn't 100%. And saying that it always needs to be right in this one area and only this one area is a "fuck you" to women.
Dark Goddess said…
Adam Black But it's not just "Innocent until proven guilty", it's that PLUS devaluing women's testimony because as stated so eloquently above "women lie". Even though in most cases they aren't.
Kayci Morgan I'm not saying it needs to be in this one area and of course rape is heinous... Every rape needs to be prosecuted and judged on the merits of its case.
I'm just saying women do lie about it too.
Dark Goddess said…
Shaun Nicholson I never claimed that women never lie. I even stated how frequently they lie. And since most rape cases aren't even prosecuted let alone lead to a conviction because people tend not to believe women over men, I don't understand what changes you'd like to see.
Adam Black said…
The Problem here is that people are conflating false-negatives with false positives.

Then people ( often Feminists ) are confusing and conflating 2 different groups : (1) People who have been raped , (2)and people who haven't ,
but pretend ( for many reasons, including the desire to inflict violence. But also guilt, shame, embarrassment and revenge on an X ).

And Sometimes its just the wrong suspect.

Most Actual Rapes , are not reported

So Kayci Morgan​​​​​ what you said about 92% includes non-reported rapes.

A fake rape claimaint doesn't face being retraumatized by the reporting. Unfortunately due to trauma , the Stigmas will effect rape survivors more than the liars.

Rape Survivors are often afraid of their Assailants ( for good reason ), while fake claimants make phony claims because they are not afraid of who they accuse.

8% doesn't seem like a lot, until you add numbers to it.
But if it doubles or trebles ( as a percentage of reported to police percentages ) that's now 16-24% !

Then factor in, that a conviction for a false rape claim will often come with being raped in prison.

We all know how common that is in the US.

Basically , If the person is a close friend or family member you should support them.


If the Accused Assailant is Bill Cosby, you should support the Survivor.

False Rape Claims do destroy lives. If we create a Public Myth of a Never-Lying-Accuser , or Gender-that-never-lies, it will empower the false-accusers. They will increase.

Same thing for zero I consequences for fraudulent claims.

< The National Organization for Women is still publicly supporting the Rolling Stone Claimant in Law Suits. *>*
Dark Goddess said…
Adam Black I think I'm misunderstanding you. Are you saying we should believe Cosby over 40+ women and the things he admitted to in the civil trial? Is that really the example of an innocent man we're going with?
Irreverent Monk said…
Impossible for 92% to include unreported rapes. By definition, an unreported rape is not reported so there is no "lie".

If we were to take into account unreported rapes, which in some cases can be 3X or 4X of reported ones, the incidents of false rape accusation drops even further.
Adam Black said…
The second statistical problem is that It isn't 1 rape per rape Accused. That's not a 1:1 match.

It isn't even 1 rape per rapist. Most rapists are serial rapists;

So you can't say things like "its a 92% chance that an accused is guilty." A man is unlikely to face multiple false accusations.

The best thing we can do to help prosecute rape is actually Do the Damn DNA tests. And Institutionalize The Innocence Project as part of Quality Control in our Justice System . ( to free the innocent )

Its outrageous that there is 20 year backlogs, of DNA rape kits.

Catching serial rapists , who ought to have been stopped decades ago, will have the most social impact. We all should be outraged this is allowed to go on.
Dark Goddess said…
Adam Black Well one thing we can agree on is the rape kits shouldn't just be sitting and rotting. But most rapes aren't a guy in a dark alley that the woman doesn't know. Most of them are date rape which then the kit only proves what they both admit to, that sex did happen. The question then comes down to if it was consensual or not.
Kayci Morgan I don't want to see any changes... The system is pretty good.
Hugh Smith said…
Amy Rothstein please substantiate your numbers
Hugh Smith said…
Irreverent Monk not the same. Most cases of Rape or sexual assault if the alleged perpetrator is male he is guilty until proven innocent. This is not the case with Murder or other violent crimes.
Hugh Smith said…
Kayci Morgan Cosby has not been found guilty in a court. So it does not really matter what we believe.
Hugh Smith said…
If an individual has been raped then in most cases they will be physical evidence of the crime. Take some of the money your government uses to bomb Syria or other places and make sure the Rape kits are processed quickly and accurately in 100 % of these reports. Rape kits if used correctly can go a long way to show consensual or none consensual sex (again not always).
Make sure that if the alleged victims if PROVEN to have lied (no sexual intercourse took place, no DNA, confession of lie, alibi, video footage) get lengthy jail sentences. This would help the real victims.
Irreverent Monk said…
No. That's just scares the shit out of victims who will believe that if the case goes against them, they will then go to jail.
Amy Rothstein said…
Hugh Smith of course there are no stats on this, think about it, how could there be?  (Actually 42 is from a scifi novel, The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, that's why I put the comment about it being the right number for a lot things.)
Hugh Smith said…
Amy Rothstein I know about the Mice. Was not sure if you were just trolling guess I fell for that one
Amy Rothstein said…
Hugh Smith You'll grant that the number of men who lie about rape is higher than women who do, right? Clearly, right?
Dark Goddess said…
Hugh Smith Lack of conviction is not innocence. I'm not going to go around declaring a man innocent when he all but admitted it in civil court. And the fact that you'd want me to ignore 40+ women and his own testimony kinda scares me. Yeah, that might make him feel warm and fuzzy, but what about all the women he raped? Just screw them til the trial is over? And that's only one trial, so if he is found guilty can we still declare him innocent for all the other women? Most of which have passed their expiration and he'll never be punished for?
Hugh Smith said…
Kayci Morgan not what I said.... Everyone in the free world is Innocent until Proven Guilty. We live in a world where the courts decide not social media. I never said I believe him to be innocent as my option does not matter. I also never asked to ignore the alleged victims.
Hugh Smith said…
Amy Rothstein I would say that more men lie about raping and being raped than women Yes I would say that.... What is your point?
Amy Rothstein said…
Just that. It was missing.
Hugh Smith said…
Amy Rothstein Sorry being a bit slow on the uptake..What is missing
Amy Rothstein said…
Go back to the top and read it.
Hugh Smith said…
Amy Rothstein got it .... Question.Your point about more men lying about Rape does that justify Women making up lies to ruin people lives?
Amy Rothstein said…
Hugh Smith no, of course not.
Jason ON said…
Tobias Harms, I can't. And that's the sad part. Trust me, that incident is one of those moral delimmas I run through in my mind every once in a while, because.
Julie Hayward said…
Many women lie about being raped. Plain and simple. We all know this just as we know tree leaves are green and poop smells.
Dark Goddess said…
Julie Desilets The highest statistic I've ever seen on the subject is 1 out of 10. That's the very highest. I've seen as low as 2 in 100. And to describe that as "many women" is a slap in the face to the 90% or more women who aren't lying and are not believed simply because men must be protected at all cost. Even at the cost of women.

I get that men live in fear that one day a woman might lie on them and destroy their lives. I understand that. How hard is it to see that women live in fear too. That rape destroys lives too. And on top of being raped they'll get to go through the humiliation of being treated like a lying slut because it makes people feel better to think those kinds of things don't happen in our society.
Hugh Smith said…
Kayci Morgan Wow a sexist comment "men must be protected at all cost". Please don't use rape and lying about it as a vehicle for feminist ideology. It belittles what these people have gone through. Remember the most prevalent form of rape in the US is male on male.
Dark Goddess said…
Hugh Smith Okay, so if that isn't the point that it's more important to make sure no man gets falsely accused ever, than to make sure that women who are raped get justice, then what is the point we're making in this thread?

And don't throw "feminist" at me like a slur. I'm assuming you mean I believe in female supremacy which I don't. And notice how while you can bring up that men are raped most in the US, we aren't discussing how men destroy men's lives by raping them in prison, which happens way, way, way more than a woman lying about rape. But the only time I ever see men concerned with the rape of other men is when they are belittling the experiences of women.
Hugh Smith said…
Kayci Morgan I did not throw anything. You made the comment "simply because men must be protected at all costs" This can classified as a feminists ideological statement. If it is not then please enlighten me. On your first point I absolutely disagree with your comment. As I said in previous comments the point is that ALL alleged rape victims get full access to rape kits and these are processed quickly and accurately. If found guilty in a court then maximum sentences. If the alleged victim is proven to have lied then harsh sentencing. There will always be mistakes and miscarriages of justice this is an imperfect world. Sad but true
Adam Black said…
Hugh Smith  You said: "ALL alleged rape victims get full access to rape kits and these are processed quickly and accurately"

No, this is falsehood.  
They are usually not done at all. Its a major scandal I posted links above. This is a double-scandal as it would find serial rapists and free innocent people!
Adam Black said…
"But it's not just "Innocent until proven guilty",'it's that PLUS devaluing women's testimony'

Do you have sociological evidence for this scientific claim.  It ought to exist if true. If not its just your opinion and may not be borne out in fact. 

IT sounds like you are unhappy the Court system doesn't work as Guilty until proven Innocent.  What you are suggesting requires a constitutional amendment which I would oppose out conscience. We would have to switch to the Interrogatory system where you hold pretrial which gather evidence, like an Expanded Grand-jury system wuth broad police-powers ...an Inquisition. 

"because as stated so eloquently above "women lie". "

Except they do.
Women do lie. Because they are human beings , not Saintly imaginary Blessed creatures. All women lie, all men lie. and when they ( humans )  are even trying to tell the truth,  they minds are filled with cognitive biases and their memories are easily manipulated to crates false memories and ,bogus testimony.

Sociopaths and Narcissists come in both flavors of human:male and female. 
If you havent met them both , up close and personal , then you are either a a very lucky or sheltered person;  I have. 

Feminists backed the  insane rightwong bullshit  witch hunts in the 1980s claiming "satanic ritual abuse" and "daycare care abuse" . Thats what the "Victims cant lie" narrative crates. 
IT creates new victims. It creates Dead bodies and destroys lives. The victims are often not men. ITs women. 

The Women-cant-lie meme was surely active in Salem Ma and every other witch-burning.  Crazy idea, we appeal to science and verifiable evidence about the accuracy of human testimony. We dont create a class of magic victims whos minds cant make errors. 

"Even though in most cases they aren't."

Except you are invoking a fallacy of ambiguity.  "most Cases" actually presumes a match between victim number, accusser number , accused and perpetrator. These are all separate sets of statistics , and they dont all match.  The simple proof of this is that most rapes are perpetrated by serial rapists. Are most accused serial accused? no. So we know there is a mismatch right there. 

Furthermore,  the reliability of victim testimonies does NOT depend on believing it. Thats is what you are implying.

 Unfortunately the evidence points to the other direction. Victim testimony is only as reliable as it  is, because we are skeptical about it. If we do as some feminists demand,  and simply make the courts believe all testimony automatically, It will make Victim Testimony wildly unreliable and encourage false -claims. 

If its someone you know you support them unconditionally.  But in a Post-gamergate world , one where distributed social media harassment is a real and ever-present danger (  I am assuming that you , like me, are against this ) we cant prosecute all rumors we hear on the internet .
Adam Black said…
Hugh Smith  " would say that more men lie about  ...being raped than women Yes I would say that.... "

Is that what you intended that to read? The stigma for male rape is even higher . There are almost no prosecutions. There is no public support. Its unlikely the small amount of men facing triple stigmas to go public is lying. 

For the ladies i would argue this is also true in highly conservative religious societies , ( where women are likely to get blamed or treated as property )
Julie Hayward said…
Kayci Morgan​ I understand what you are saying, but for the millions of women who populate the earth, I think that your 10% could be considered "many". I didn't say "several" or "the majority", just "many"which could constitute any number above 10 or 20 individuals. Sadly, I know "some" of these admitted liars; one being a family member. I applogize for my ignorance as I have no interest in statistics. I am not a believer that "men are protected at all cost"; not in this day & age (unless perhaps the individual holds a status where those around him may do/say anything to protect him at all cost ....which doesn't mean he's innocent - or guilty). I AM a believer in innocent until proven guilty by a judge and/or jury.
Dark Goddess said…
Julie Desilets For us to be talking about 10% of the entire female population would mean that every woman, everywhere has pressed rape charges. We're not talking about 10% of the population or other lies, like "this is really my hair" and "no, I'm not wearing make up" we're talking specifically about women who claim they were raped.

As for all those people arguing innocent until proven guilty answer me this, if your babysitter was charged with molesting three little girls would you still leave him with your five year old daughter? That's basically what's being advocated, that he be treated absolutely no different until he's been convicted regardless of how much evidence they have against him. So unless you can say, "Yes, he could keep his job babysitting my daughter" none of you truly believe in innocent until proven guilty.
Adam Black said…
Kayci Morgan​​ Way Back Up . Yes, You did misunderstand me.
You read my comment before I first edited it. It had a Typo that I immediately fixed . TLDR; Fuck Bill Cosby. He's the Country's most notorious serial rapist.

I said the opposite of what you thought. I.e. That Cosby's Victims should unambiguously be believed.
( because fuck Bill Cosby )

Cosby is independently corroborated as a serial rapist by multiple lines of evidence.

Do I really think that Cosby raped 40 Women? Of course not, I think he raped 200-300 . Don't you think that sounds more accurate?

Of Course, this doesn't mean that every single one of Cosby's accusers are one of these 200 + Rape Survivors.

As the Stigma disintegrates against taking down Cosby I would expect more fake reports to get added--- Because these are two different populations of people: Survivors and Accusers. Yes, they overlap. But non-survivor Accusers ( liars ) don't risk personal trauma in coming out. We can agree on that too, I am sure.

So even though I believe Cosby raped over 200 women, ( far above the evidence, but in line with the science of non reported rape ) , I can freely admit he could eventually have 30-40 fake claimants.
( with Cosby who knows really. This story is ongoing. Its tabloid news for a decade )

If we go by your 92% that would mean 16 fake claimants. Do you see the problem, the fakers rise to the top.

But at this point I wouldn't really care 85% of Cosby's accusers are liars. He's still guilty as hell.

& Trump is a rapist too.

Hugh Smith said…
Adam Black please re read ALL my comments. I did not say all GET access if you read all the comments I am highlighting that this SHOULD happen but does not.
Adam Black said…
Hugh Smith​ You said say GET .
I'm quoting you. Cut-and-paste
You said: "... the point is that ALL alleged rape victims get full access to rape kits and these are processed quickly and accurately."

Thats your words, cut and paste.
It totally wrong. Dont complain to me. You are the one who wrote it. Edit it so it so it Not-crazy-wrong.
Julie Hayward said…
Kayci Morgan before I leave this thread I just wanted to say is that my point was .... There ARE women who lie about being raped. Many. Point blank. If a few of your husband's most recent ex's claimed he raped them (only claimed), would you toss him to the curb right away or demand proof? And for the record I was in no way talking about or referencing Cosby. I'm not following that story because it doesn't interest me. That's his problem.
Take care. Enjoy the thread.
Dark Goddess said…
Julie Desilets It depends of which one of them I believed. If I didn't think my husband did it, then even a jury finding him guilty wouldn't make me abandon him. 12 random people don't make decisions for me. I make my own decisions. But if I thought he really did do it, then yeah, I'd leave him.

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