Leave it to the Satanists to fight for a woman's right to control her own body after the secular state clearly...

Leave it to the Satanists to fight for a woman's right to control her own body after the secular state clearly failed them.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/07/28/satanists-want-to-use-hobby-lobby-decision-to-exempt-women-from-anti-abortion-laws/#.U9begQzRXq0.google_plusone_share

Comments

Marty Nozz said…
More proof that people have no freaking clue what the Hobby Lobby case was actually about.
Jason ON said…
It was about a private entity's rights to force the officer's religious views on others.
Marty Nozz said…
Aaaaaand false.  Its about a privately held company not having to pay for things they have a strong objection to.   Hobby Lobby was not trying to force its views upon its employees.  They paid fully for 16 out of 20 types of birth control, and if the employees wanted to purchase and use the other four, they were free to do so with their own money.

That was the case.  So, the dumb-ass Satanists are going to get nowhere with their case because it has absolutely nothing to do with anti-abortion laws.

Sorry you bought into the stupid hype about this case, because it was all much ado about nothing.
Jason ON said…
And the private corporation argued they had a "strong objection" to based on religious ideals.

That being said, the Satanists are using the same premise the SCotUS based their decision on to combat the GOP's war on women. 

If a religious objection to contraceptives for a corporation is a valid argument, then the religious objection to forced -pre-abortion counseling is also valid.

As the dissenting opinion in the Hobby Lobby case stated, the court's decision allows private entities to claim religious objection to just about anything aside from taxes.
Marty Nozz said…
Wow.  You've bought into the "War on Women" thing too?

In the terms of the case the only thing they could actually combat if forcing privately owned companies to pay for pre-abortion counseling if they have a strong objection.

Sorry, this doesn't hold water.  Just stupid grandstanding against a straw man.
Chris Moore said…
Marty Nozz Of course it's grandstanding, but they absolutely do have a point. The implication of a ruling stating that a corporation (which can't possibly, of itself, possess a religious view) does not have to provide healthcare options that its owners finds morally objectionable is that an individual, who can possess religious views, can't be subjected to a treatment that they find morally objectionable. The point that the satanists are asserting is fully supported by the principle on which the Hobby Lobby ruling was based. 

"much ado about nothing"

I don't think that this is true. There's no reason why religion need come into the employer-employee relationship at all, and every reason why it shouldn't. Healthcare provision is part of an employee's remuneration package. There's no material difference between allowing the employer to dictate what kinds of medical treatment their employees can have and allowing the employer to dictate what employees can spend their money on.
mike tuey said…
Then companies should not be forced to pay for health ins if they have no discretion to what they provide.....employees can go purchase their own or go work somewhere that provides the plan they want. It is not religous bigotry to have a different set of values any more than it is bigotry in the part of a non religous person to stand up for whatever it is they want or believe. Just because not everyone agrees on a specific issue does not make one or the other an evil dumbass. You want that kind if birth control.....go buy it. No one said you cant. You dont like hobby lobby or chick filet? Go to Michaels or macdonalds.
Marty Nozz said…
Chris Moore Ah, but the employers never said what their employee can spend their money on.  That's what gets glossed over in much of the discussion about the case.  The employer only said that there were 4 out of 20 contraceptive means that they would not cover.  They never said they could not go and get them on their own.  There's no dictating of anything going on.  Never was.

As for a corporation not holding a religious view, that's also not the case in that the ruling only covers tightly held corporations.  These are corps with private ownership and not ones that are public and have stockholders and the like.

The amusing Satanists are amusing in their typical manner, but their case is going to fall flat.
Jason ON said…
And to be more detailed, the "4 of 20" contraceptives they didn't want to cover were those they felt were abortatives. Which is what? That's right, against their religious principles.
Jason ON said…
So, it proves our point over and over again. The Hobby Lobby decision was based off a corporation's right to enforce it's religious principles on it's employees.
Marty Nozz said…
Except that it really doesn't.  All it said is they don't want to pay for something, and they've offered plenty of alternatives.  Let again, they aren't forcing any principles upon anyone.

You're letting your knee-jerk anti-theism get the better of you again.
Jason ON said…
Ah yes, the same knee-jerk anti-theism that got the better of the dissenting justices and every respectable organization that supports the separation of church and state.

Hobby Lobby is making decisions on their employee's behalf based on their own religious principles. It's that simple. The 5 conservative justices claim Hobby Lobby, as a privately held entity, can enforce their own beliefs on their employees. Beliefs based on religious doctrine.
Chris Moore said…
Marty Nozz As I said, restricting healthcare options is materially the same as deciding what employees can spend their money on, given that healthcare is part of their remuneration package. 

Women can indeed pay for their own contraception separately, but that just makes it more expensive for them than for anyone else (and it really can be a significant expense). I don't believe that Hobby Lobby are going to pay their employees more in return for giving them less healthcare. Are they? And it honestly doesn't matter if it's only four out of twenty if you happen to be a woman using an IUD, at which point it's one out of one. It's not like all contraceptives are the same, after all. You can slice it up whichever way you want, but the corporation's owners have simply made it significantly more difficult for their female employees to obtain some reproductive health products on the basis of their privately held individual religious beliefs. Which ironically makes their standing to make a "moral objection" to anything really quite shaky.

Marty Nozz said…
Chris Moore Hobby Lobby actually pays very well.  Not much of an issue there.  Women can indeed make their own choices, and they can indeed take responsibility for those choices.  Its stupid that anyone should expect their employer to cater to them in the fashion that the government now expects.

Take responsibility, even if that means gasp paying for your own shit.

Jason ON Nah, its pretty much just you and those whom are easy targets for having their chains pulled.
Chris Moore said…
Marty Nozz Again, healthcare provision is part of a remuneration package, not a charitable gift from the employer. So people are already "paying for their own shit" if they have health insurance as part of their employment package.
Marty Nozz said…
Chris Moore And Hobby Lobby offers a very good healthcare package.  They just don't offer four items that are, for very silly reasons, a bone of contention.  Not all jobs pay the same.  Not all healthcare packages are the same.  And moreover, no one is holding a gun to those employees' heads and making them work there.

So again: no one is forcing any principles upon anyone and this whole thing is completely stupid.

And as I've lost count of how many times I've repeated this its obviously falling upon deaf ears.  So I'm done here and will be sitting back to watch this all play out exactly as I've predicted it will.

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